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Are both the theist and atheist wrong?

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posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 03:04 AM
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I have been studying the Tao Te Ching...



The tao that can be described is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be spoken is not the eternal Name.
The nameless is the boundary of Heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of creation.
Freed from desire, you can see the hidden mystery.
By having desire, you can only see what is visibly real.
Yet mystery and reality emerge from the same source.
This source is called darkness. Darkness born from darkness.
The beginning of all understanding.


The first chapter of Tao Te Ching describes a reality that does not conform with most modern day understandings of God. It agree's with Genesis that a named Creator is the mother of all creation. But it also describes an eternal name that can never be uttered that exists prior to that named Creator. That which created God.

That absolute reality agree's with concepts from mystical Judaism (Kabbalah). That everything manifested (yesh) including the Creator exist in consciousness. Which manifested into being from a mysterious and unknown source which some Kabbalist have labelled the unmanifested or mysterious ayin.

That mysterious ayin is also described in the Nag Hammadi The Apocryphon of John..."We should not think of it as a god or like a god. For it is greater than a god, because it has nothing over it and no lord above it. It does not exist within anything inferior to it, since everything exists within it alone. It is eternal, since it does not need anything. For it is absolutely complete....."

There is also a story told of the Buddha. A Brahman devotee went to Buddha and asked Buddha if Brahman was the absolute reality. The Buddha answered no. An atheist hearing the news went to the Buddha to thank him for the truth. The Buddha answered your non-existent God does exist.

Are both the theist and atheist wrong? The very nature of the absolute reality beyond the capacity of our minds to grasp. If we dive deeper than the deepest into the darkness born from darkness within ourselves can we experience that absolute reality.

Me thinks so.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 03:52 AM
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originally posted by: glend
The very nature of the absolute reality beyond the capacity of our minds to grasp.

This statement is included within theism.
It is what is meant by the word "incomprehensible", applied to God by the Athanasian creed. Theological descriptions do nt claim to be anything more then approximations, to the extent that our limited understanding allows.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 04:39 AM
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a reply to: glend



The very nature of the absolute reality beyond the capacity of our minds to grasp.


Given the size, scale, complexity, and overall grand scheme of our universe, it's not really any wonder our minds are incapable of understanding the totality of our universe and existence.

If there is a god or creator force it may simply be above humanity's paygrade and/or ability to perceive or comprehend.
edit on 3-7-2022 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 04:50 AM
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a reply to: glend

Good post, although I don't think all of them are wrong. There are different types of theists and atheists. But a lot of atheists have a naive idea of what God is, and same goes for theists too. The Absolute or the Creator or the Tao.

I like the name of God given to Moses in the Bible: I Am that I Am. Sort of a mystery, God is that God is.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 06:16 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

What if the absolute reality is not only incomprehensible but is empty of anything we can claim of God. With no attributes our mind can grasp. That is perhaps why the Tao Te Ching calls it nameless. When we name anything it allows our mind to use labels to define attributes like "incomprehensible". It turns the nameless into a named Thing. That allows truth to fall through our fingers like water.

If we speculate that the nameless has manifested many Creators each with its own realm (house with many mansions) into existence. Our own personal consciousness, perhaps a segmentation of the greater consciousness, may always be restricted to that reality. The source of the absolute reality, the darkness born from darkness. being beyond the confines of our ever desiring grasping mind. Yet accessible through desire-less prayer and meditations.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 06:26 AM
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a reply to: Cutepants

I too am drawn to I AM that I AM. Descartes "I think therefore i am" associated "I AM" with thinking. But I personally feel the nameless is the very core of our "I AM". The mind drowning out the subtleness of that pure awareness with its roar of thoughts. We never get to realize whats under our very nose.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 08:05 AM
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a reply to: glend
In general, humans are not comfortable with anything we can't throw in a box and slap a label on. It goes against our grain. Therefore, we either create a religion around it, or we deny it altogether. Are both wrong? Probably.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 08:34 AM
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originally posted by: glend
What if the absolute reality is not only incomprehensible but is empty of anything we can claim of God.

Religion believes that God communicates, in which case the ability to communicate and all its implications follow automatically.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 10:25 AM
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a reply to: andy06shake

Not for me.

The grandeur of his majesty is beyond most comprehension including my own except I have the mind of Christ and am seated in the heavenlies with him right now. Those who are saved and cannot grasp the mind of God and his vast creation might reconsider their faith if it is true or not.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 10:35 AM
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originally posted by: glend
I have been studying the Tao Te Ching...

The first chapter of Tao Te Ching describes a reality that does not conform with most modern day understandings of God. It agree's with Genesis that a named Creator is the mother of all creation.

That absolute reality agree's with concepts from mystical Judaism (Kabbalah). That everything manifested (yesh) including the Creator exist in consciousness. Which manifested into being from a mysterious and unknown source which some Kabbalist have labelled the unmanifested or mysterious ayin.


The Christian God depicts Himself as a Father, not mother
As Diz stated so eloquently, also a communicator

Communicators can be understood, even more amazing is when that communicator advances love to the point, He manifests as part of the creation to advocate love as well as community.
Creation was completed so God could build community and share love. The key doctrine being Trinity, existing community expanding, created in His image to be a community of love in a family context
Your Taoism doesn’t generate any community or love as I see it, no reason or explanation

What’s your point?



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 10:44 AM
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a reply to: glend

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 11:02 AM
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Perhaps "I am that I am" is the ___spirit ____part in the holy trinity



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 11:38 AM
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a reply to: glend

Hi glend

I wrestle with these questions from time to time, now mostly in the pool doing my x but only when I am not practicing my Donald Duck impersonation.

Sometimes when I get all wrapped up in these conundrums I turn to Iris to help me set my mind at ease.




posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 12:11 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Smashing.

However, your comprehension is the same as the rest of us unless God is talking to you directly.


As to being saved, well if that amounts to being christened I'm probably in the same boat as yourself.

Where faith is concerned, well that's a leap, i like to look before i leap.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 09:07 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI



Religion believes that God communicates, in which case the ability to communicate and all its implications follow automatically.


Therefore, the absolute reality is not God. As consciousness to consciousness communication requires the manifestation of at least two minds (Gods and Yours). The greater mind of God being our universe born from a primordial wish from the absolute reality.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 09:36 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

The only point I seek is truth. You say faith in the trinity is key to doctrine. Jesus said if your faith is as small as a mustard seed you could move mountains. It seems Jesus was warning that having too much faith (aka filling ones mind) is detrimental to spiritual progress. Believing that God is this, God is that, creates a god in ones mind that will never move that mountain. That is the point of the Tao Te Ching, the name that can be spoken is not the eternal Name.

I certainly am not suggesting to anyone they give up Christianity for Taoism.



posted on Jul, 3 2022 @ 09:46 PM
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a reply to: infolurker

I swipe thee with the sword of Ezekiel ..... Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die".



posted on Jul, 4 2022 @ 06:55 PM
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a reply to: glend

No, Jesus wasn’t warning that at all
It only takes a seed for a tree to grow, a seed is a beginning to greater faith
Context



posted on Jul, 4 2022 @ 08:32 PM
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Usually with theism, Gods tend be given human form, and are usually absolutes, where as atheism tends to lack imagination more or less. And can be so monotone an hollow, compared to Zeus or Odin shiney flowing beards.

Judaism for the most, God isn’t really given human form, or can’t really be depicted as such, and was more or less a force of nature to be reckoned that became conceptualized.. Islam same thing, but that whole another dialogue an semantics. Thing is though, Judaism never really in the idea of the soul, an any idea of it was mundane imo, compared to a glorified after life.

I like the Tao, where it not so much about life being written in stone or superstitions like feng shui or an omnipresent Smiterdin that strikes fear into lowly mortals. It kind of like Bruce Lee philosophies on being water, or how did the Tao put, be strong an flexible like Bamboo?



posted on Jul, 4 2022 @ 08:32 PM
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Dbl post.

edit on 4-7-2022 by Proto88 because: (no reason given)



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